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Пишет Misha Verbitsky ([info]tiphareth)
@ 2018-05-03 18:27:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Настроение: sick
Музыка:300,000 V.K. - Titan
Entry tags:islam, smeshnoe, usa

культурный расизм, нетолерантность и мизогиния!
Отлично
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/april/maine-democrats-refuse-to-pass-law-forbidding-barbaric-practice-on-little-girls
в штате Мэн феминистки блокируют законодательство
по борьбе с женским обрезанием.

"What we should not be doing is counting potential victims

at-risk by counting the number of Somali, Egyptian and
Gideon females in immigrant families in Maine, not unless
we are willing to face the racism in that calculation and
the racism and misogyny entrenched in so many of us."

Reckitt ... continued with the racism attack,
asking the house members how much "collateral racism" they
are willing to risk to end FGM. "Maine has too much at
stake to be distracted by ideology-driven laws that are
bad and misguided policy."

Потому что запрещать женское обрезание
(которому в некоторых районах Портланда, Мэн
подвергается до четверти девочек, сообщают врачи)
это культурный расизм, нетолерантность
и мизогиния.

Отчасти, конечно, так и есть, потому что
закон продвигают республиканцы, которые всех
этих мюслей видали в гробу и в белых тапочках,
а занимаются чисто конкретно анти-муслимской
пропагандой. Но все равно получилось смешно.

Привет



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[info]gudrun_fioshev
2018-05-04 13:58 (ссылка)
Кто кого любит и не любит? Не любите расизм и негров?
Надо поискать вдувателей в чате - они точно покажут стутистику. Википедия показывает центральные районы Африки и Йемен

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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 14:21 (ссылка)
Ну нет, точно больше. В Египте вроде бы поголовно. Даже до рашечки дошло.

Проблема с мюслями в том, что читать они в принципе не умеют, а если читают, то Коран -- который не парсится и представляет из себя очень поэтический поток бессвязного бреда. Потому любая новомодная хуйня за 10 лет становитсяй древней традицией из глубины веков, и концов не найдешь.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 16:50 (ссылка)
насчет женского обрезания, есть вполне серьезные мусульманские религиозные тексты
(арабские, средневековые) которые его предписывают
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation#Fuqaha.E2.80.99_of_Islam_are_agreed_that_it_is_prescribed.2C_not_an_inherited_custom
сейчас доминирует теория мужское обрезание обязательно, женское желательно


Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 –

That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): "Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women."

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 –

That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): "In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women."

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 –

That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

"Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women."

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.


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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 21:41 (ссылка)
>есть вполне серьезные мусульманские религиозные тексты (арабские, средневековые) которые его предписывают

Разумеется; и столько же, которые не предписывают. Мохаммад завещал своим последователям разделиться на 73 секты, они и разделились.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 16:50 (ссылка)

We would add here the fatwas of some modern scholars who have responded to this war that has been launched against female circumcision on the grounds that it is harmful to health.

Shaykh Jaad al-Haqq ‘Ali Jaad al-Haqq, the former Shaykh of al-Azhar, said:

"Hence the fuqaha’ of all madhhabs are agreed that circumcision for both men and woman is part of the fitrah of Islam and one of the symbols of the faith, and it is something praiseworthy. There is no report from any of the Muslim fuqaha’, according to what we have studied in their books that are available to us, to say that circumcision is forbidden for men or women, or that it is not permissible, or that it is harmful for females, if it is done in the manner that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught to Umm Habeebah in the report quoted above."

Then he said:

"From the above it is clear that the circumcision of girls – which is the topic under discussion here – is part of the fitrah of Islam, and the way it is to be done is the method that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained. It is not right to abandon his teachings for the view of anyone else, even if that is a doctor, because medicine is knowledge and knowledge is always developing and changing."

In the fatwa of Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqar – the former heard of the Fatwa Committee in al-Azhar – it says:

"The calls which urge the banning of female circumcision are call that go against Islam, because there is no clear text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah and there is no opinion of the fuqaha’ that says that female circumcision is haraam. Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended. Even though there is a fiqhi principle which says that the decree of a ruler may put an end to a dispute regarding controversial matters, the decree of the ruler in this case cannot be but either of two things: that it is either obligatory or recommended, and it is not correct to issue a decree banning it, so as not to go against sharee’ah which is the principal source of legislation in our land, whose constitution states that Islam is the official religion of the country. It is permissible to issue some legislation that provides guidelines for performing this procedure (female circumcision) in the proper manner in such a way that does not contradict the rulings of sharee’ah.

The words of the doctors and others are not definitive. Scientific discoveries are still opening doors every day which change our old perceptions."

In the fatwa of Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyyah (6/1986) it says:

"Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path."

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 16:51 (ссылка)
We do not know of any hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ordered that his wives or daughters be circumcised, but it is narrated that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised a woman who did circumcision in Madeenah as to the proper way of circumcision. It was narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Shu’ab from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcision in Madeenah, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

According to another report: “Take only a little and do not go to extremes.”

It is also indicated by the general meaning of the evidence that has been narrated concerning circumcision, such as the hadeeth in al-Bukhaari (5891) and Muslim (527) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him): I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”

In Saheeh Muslim (349) it is narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

According to a report narrated by al-Tirmidhi (109) and elsewhere: “When the two circumcised parts meet…”

Al-Bukhaari used this phrase as a chapter heading.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: What is meant by this metaphor is the circumcised parts of the man and the woman.

Female circumcision is done by cutting a small part of the skin that looks like a rooster’s comb, above the exit of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to cut all of it, but rather a part of it. Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (19/28).

The Shaafa’is, the Hanbalis according to the well-known view of their madhhab, and others are of the view that circumcising women is obligatory. Many scholars are of the view that it is not obligatory in the case of women; rather it is Sunnah and is an honour for them.
But we would like to point out here that it has medical benefits to which attention should be paid, regardless of the difference of opinion among the scholars as to whether it is obligatory or mustahabb. This has been discussed in the answer to question no. 45528.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 16:52 (ссылка)
"Shaykh Muhammad, settle the controversy for us surrounding circumcision."

My brother, we have talked about circumcision many times. I counsel every Muslim man on the face of the earth, and also every Muslim woman on the face of the earth: Brother, take the little bit of trouble it requires to get yourself a book of fiqh! Inconvenience yourself a little for Allah's sake. Just take five minutes. Any book--do you have the book "Fiqh al-Sunna" by Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq (may Allah have mercy on him)? Do you have "Al-Mughni" by Ibn al-Qudama, or "Kitab al-Umm" by Imam al-Shafi'i? Do you have Fath al-Bari's explanation of Sahih al-Bukhari? Any of the books of fiqh--I mentioned to you some books of fiqh and some books of hadith--open any of the books of fiqh. Open them. That's it, plain and simple.

Review the words of scholars. Don't just take the words of Muhammad Hassan, or this shaykh, or that shaykh. Look at any of the books of fiqh from our imams, respected leaders, and scholars--ask them. You will find that our scholars have said that circumcision of women--there are some who say that it is obligatory while others say that it is commendable. Some say it is obligatory, and others say it is commendable. There are some scholars who say it is obligatory, and there are some who say it is commendable.

To whoever says that circumcision is an ancient Egyptian custom with no origin in the sunna, I say, Brother, review the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Let us consult the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him): "If you touch the male or female circumcision…" This hadith deals with the highest level of community health. In the highest level of health: "If you touch the male circumcision," meaning the circumcision of men, "or the female circumcision," meaning the circumcision of women, "washing is obligatory." These are the true words from the Prophet. It makes no sense at all in Arabic to say, "If you touch the male circumcision for men or the female circumcision for men.” Men, does this apply to you--"male or female circumcision"? Or rather, with circumcision for men or circumcision for women, "washing is obligatory."

Thus I say before Almighty Allah…that the female Muslim doctor, the female Muslim doctor, decides whether or not this girl needs circumcision. It might be that the girl does not need circumcision. That's an entirely natural situation. But if this news were to get out, it could upset her relationship with husband. It would upset her marital life. The female Muslim doctor might also decide that the girl needs circumcision.

Of course this does not mean that I am subjecting the religion to inspection from a doctor. No, my brothers, this does not mean that I subject evidence from the shari'a to review from a doctor! But rather, I refer to the doctor because he confirms evidence from the shari'a. Brothers, pay attention to this--I do not subject the shari'a to examination from the doctor, for the doctor to determine whether the shari'a is healthy or not. Rather I refer the evidence from the shari'a, or I refer the case to the doctor, to confirm the object of the evidence from the shari'a. …some of them say it is required, and some say it is recommended.
I am not saying consult a barber, but consult a female doctor sister. The female doctor will decide, she might say this girl is normal or she might say that this part is excessive then you reduce it. This is justice. I don’t know why a German, British or American entity (thinks it can) come to us to decide for us the circumcision of our daughters! Why should they decide on matters of our girls and women? We base our religion on Allah’s book and the sayings of our beloved prophet and our scholars. Just study the issue in any book of fiqh. If we read the words of our scholars, and we review what the good scholars said, we will see that the issue is not new, and there is evidence for it in the book of our Lord or in the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace be upon him). I ask Almighty Allah to protect our women and girls, for He is capable over all things.

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(Анонимно)
2018-05-04 18:12 (ссылка)
>что читать они в принципе не умеют
а почему так?

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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 21:42 (ссылка)
Тупые очень. Ну и арабского не знают.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 16:56 (ссылка)
статистика врет, конечно
а по факту - оно в хадисах прямым текстом прописано

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.” Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

bu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
Ḥadīth (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīth Arabic pronunciation: [ħadiːθ], pl. Aḥādīth, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīth[3] Arabic pronunciation: [ʔaħadiːθ], also "Traditions") in Islam denotes the words, actions, and the silent approval, of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Within Islam the authority of Ḥadīth as a source for religious law ranks second to that of the Qur'an — which Muslims hold to be the word of Allah revealed to his messenger Muhammad — and whose verses (such as 24:54, 33:21) to emulate, obey, and abide by the judgement of Muhammad, provide the scriptural authority for ahadith. However, "the great bulk" of the rules of the Islamic law are derived from ahadith, rather than the Qur'an, because the number of verses pertaining to law in the Quran is relatively few.[4]

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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 21:44 (ссылка)
Хадисы не Коран, каждый одни признают, другие не признают. Но формально, в том что ты процитировал -- нет, не написано (шариат это law, а не какое-то там мутное "preservation of honor").

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 22:23 (ссылка)
>Хадисы не Коран, каждый одни признают, другие не признают.

Да, но вроде бы насчет женского обрезания разногласий нет.

>Но формально, в том что ты процитировал -- нет, не написано

Написано, что это либо обязательно, либо не обязательно, но полезно.
Насчет того, что обязательно, есть разногласия,
насчет полезности разногласий нет.

Кстати, и про то, что женское обрезание
практикуют только или в основном в африке - хуита,
основной очаг женского обрезания в Индонезии и Малайзии

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation
According to William Clarence-Smith, Islamic Southeast Asia "overwhelmingly" follows the Shafi`i school of law, the only one to make FGM obligatory. Islam introduced FGM into Indonesia and Malaysia from the 13th century on.[63][64] Over 80 percent of Malaysian women claim religious obligation as the primary reason for practising FGM, along with hygiene (41 percent) and cultural practice (32 percent).[65] The practice is widespread among Muslim women in Indonesia,[66] and over 90 percent of Muslim adults supported it as of 2003.

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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 22:56 (ссылка)
А не Египет разве?

Малайзия с Индонезией сейчас может и очаг, но исходно не могут быть, они поздно исламизированы (и небось оно наложилось на какие-то местные адаты).

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 23:02 (ссылка)
в Египте, однако, 100 миллионов человек, а
в Индонезии 260 миллионов
в Малайзии 31 миллион
и еще на Филлипинах 10 миллионов муслимов

вообще Индонезия есть крупнейшая по всем параметрам
и самая развитая муслимская страна в мире

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[info]kaledin
2018-05-04 23:04 (ссылка)
Вот именно -- их просто больше. А по процентам, там ясно написано: The highest percentages are found in Somalia, Guinea, Mali, Egypt, and Sudan, where 87–98 percent of women had experienced it.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 23:04 (ссылка)
в Индонезии половина, но это все равно больше,
потому что там тупо больше населения

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 23:07 (ссылка)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country#Indonesia

In 2010, the Indonesian Health Ministry issued a decree outlining the proper procedure for FGM, which activists claim contradicted the 2006 ruling prohibiting clinics from performing any FGM.[223]

In 2013, the Indonesian Ulema Council ruled that it favors FGM, stating that although it is not mandatory, it is still “morally recommended”.[224] The Ulema has been pushing Indonesian government to circumcise girls, claiming it is part of Islamic teachings.[225] Some Indonesian officials, in March 2013, claimed cutting and pricking type circumcision is not FGM.[226] In 2014 the government criminalized all forms of FGM after it repealed exceptions to the laws.[227]

According to 2016 report by UNICEF, 49% of Indonesian girls of age below 14 had already undergone FGM/C by 2015.[228]

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 23:07 (ссылка)
http://jakartaglobe.id/news/unicef-200-million-fgm-cases-worldwide-many-indonesia/

Jakarta. Indonesia has one of the world's highest numbers of women and girls undergoing female genital mutilation and cutting, newly collected data from the United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef) shows.

The world's largest Muslim-majority country, together with Egypt and Ethiopia, accounts for half of the more than 200 million women and girls alive today who have fallen victim to the practice, Unicef says. The total number is considerably — about 70 million — higher than previous UN estimates.

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[info]tiphareth
2018-05-04 23:04 (ссылка)
>и небось оно наложилось на какие-то местные адаты).

да нет вроде
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country#Indonesia
Historical records suggest female circumcision in Indonesia started and became prevalent with the arrival of Islam in the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam. In islands of Indonesia, where partial populations converted to Islam in the 17th century, FGM has been prevalent in Muslim females only.

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