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Brig and Sloop
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Ниже приводится разговор на одном из форумов по поводу употребления термина "шлюп" в Royal Navy 18-го столетия.
From: "Lt. Commander Fernandez"
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:03 pm
Subject: Brig and Sloop
I was explaning, "Master and Commander" by O'Brian to a freind and ran
into a problem I hope someone can shed light on, because I haven't
found the answer.
Why is it that a Brig (a two masted vessal with square sails) is a Lt.
command and a Sloop (a single masted vessal with fore and aft sails)
is a Master and Commanders Command.
He (and I ) understand calling the Sophie a Sloop because Jack was a
M&C but wouldn't a sloop be a lighter and less heavy maned boat? And a
Brig, being square rig would be more complex then a fore and aft Sloop.
Does anyone know the answer to this or is it like O'Brian said M&C "in
the Navy we always do it like that" or it's just tradition.
From: "Greg"
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In the Royal Navy, a sloop was a Commander's command - either a 2 masted
brig-sloop or a three masted sloop (corvette). It had 16 to 26 guns although
20 guns up was usually a Captain's command. What the Americans call a
sloop - a one masted fore and aft vessel - is a cutter in the Royal Navy -
not to be confused with the large ship's boat also called a cutter.
Greg.
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:43 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg's reply is more accurate, but perhaps requires elaboration.
In the RN, a "sloop-of-war" (to give it its full designation) was any square-rigged warship below the Sixth Rate and thus mounting fewer than 20 guns (this was somewhat flexible, with a very few 20-gun vessels also being designated as sloops, although generally 20-gunships were Sixth Rates, commanded by Post Captains). In February 1817 this dividing line was raised from 20 to 24 guns, as it was at this date that carronades mounted on the upperworks (i.e. quarterdeck and forecastle) were all counted in a vessel's official gun-rating.
There was in fact no lower gun-rating; sloops could in practice have as few as ten guns (the infamous 'Cherokee' Class of brig-sloops is the chief example).
Sloops could be thus either two-masted or three-masted. The three-masted class were thus ships (you must understand that at this date the word 'ship' was a much more precise term than it has become later, and indicated ONLY a three-masted vessel, square-rigged on the fore and main masts and carrying a fore-and-aft sail on the mizzen mast) and were described as ship sloops. The two-masted classes were almost always (by 1793) brig-rigged and were thus termed brig-sloops or simply brigs (there was a subtle distinction between these latter two which I won't go into). All these were, as Greg states, commanded by Masters-and-Commanders (usually simply called Commanders, although the rank did not become a substantive one until 1794, and until that time Commanders only held that rank while appointed to command a vessel, and when moved from that post they reverted to the substantive rank of Lieutenant).
There are several exceptions to the above. The smaller brigs, below about 200 tons, were commanded by Lieutenants rather than Commanders, and the clear distinction between these commands is that the smaller class were designated as "gun-brigs". Also, there had been other earlier types of two-masted sloop, mainly carrying ketch rigs, but all or virtually all of these had gone before 1793. Two highly unique vessels (Bentham's 'Dart' and 'Arrow') received the designation "sloop" although they carried 26 or 28 guns - mainly receiving this designation because nothing else seemed to fit these very experimental vessels.
I hope this helps. Certainly you should get out of your head any idea of the word 'sloop' describing a single-masted vessel with a fore-and-aft rig; that has nothing whatsoever to do with the naval term 'sloop'.
Regards,
Rif Winfield
From: "Knut G."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:41 am
Subject: Re: Brig and Sloop - & Cutter?
Just to add a little curiosity after the preceeding comprehensive
exlanation; a quite rare case seems to be the classification of a
Cutter as "Sloop". The big cutter Alert (69 ft 4 in) was rated as
"sloop" in october 1777, "when her Commanding Officer; Lt Bazely was
promoted to the rank of Commander" (PEter Goodwin: The Naval Cutter
Alert, p. 22, footnote). If I remember correctly i read somewhere else
that her sister Rattlesnake was classified as sloop, too. Does anybody
know how many cutters were rated as sloops? Perhaps the mentioned two
were the only cases?
Best Regards
Knut
From: keacla1@...
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
"Why is it that a Brig (a two masted vessal with square sails) is a Lt.
command and a Sloop (a single masted vessal with fore and aft sails)
is a Master and Commanders Command."
Your definition of a sloop is the most common one, but in naval
terms a sloop was a small warship of c. 12-20 guns (I don't have the
exact definition in front of me) which was usually ship-rigged, i.e.
with three square-rigged masts. Thus it was larger than a brig.
Keith
From: batrinque@...
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 2:47:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, tanparcau@... writes:
I hope this helps. Certainly you should get out of your head any idea of the word 'sloop' describing a single-masted vessel with a fore-and-aft rig; that has nothing whatsoever to do with the naval term 'sloop'.
Or, to quote Stephen Maturin (and others) from Patrick O'Brian's "Master and Commander":
'It is a false description; and a false description is anathema to the philosophic mind.'
'I am sure it is anathema to the philosophic mind,' said James Dillon. 'But the naval mind fairly revels in it, so it does. Take that word sloop, for example.'
'Yes,' said Stephen, narrowing his eyes through the haze of port and trying to remember the definitions he had heard.
'Why, now, a sloop, as you know, is properly a one-masted vessel, with a fore-and-aft rig. But in the Navy a sloop may be ship-rigged - she may have three masts.'
'Or take the Sophie,' cried the master, anxious to bring his crumb of comfort. 'She's rightly a brig, you know, Doctor, with her two masts.' He held up two fingers, in case a landman might not fully comprehend so great a number.
'But the minute Captain Aubrey sets foot in her, why, she too becomes a sloop; for a brig is a lieutenant's command.'
'Or take me,' said Jack. 'I am called captain, but really I am only a master and commander.'
'Or the place where the men sleep, just for'ard,' said the purser, pointing. 'Rightly speaking, and official, 'tis the gun-deck, though there's never a gun on it. We call it the spar-deck - though there's no spars, neither - but some say the gun-deck still, and call the right gun-deck the upper-deck. Or take this brig, which is no true brig at all, not with her square mainsail, but rather a sorts of snow, or a hermaphrodite.'
'No, no, my dear sir,' said James Dillon, 'never let a mere word grieve your heart. We have nominal captain's servants who are, in fact, midshipmen; we have nominal able seamen on our books who are scarcely breeched - they are a thousand miles away and still at school; we swear we have not shifted any backstays, when we shift them continually; and we take many other oaths that nobody believes - no, no, you may call yourself what you please, so long as you do your duty. The Navy speaks in symbols, and you may suit what meaning you choose to the words.'
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "E.J."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:49 am
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg, with all due respect, the Oxford English Dictionary defines a sloop as a fore-and-aft rigged vessel, according to the first definition, which dates as early as 1629 (Def 1a). You can’t tell me that they “Americanized” the OED…
Could it be that the situational use of the term sloop employed by the Royal Navy and described in Patrick O’Brien’s book has confused you? A later definition describes a sloop of war, but does not specify the rigging.
EJ
Here’s the definition:
[ad. Du. sloep, = Fris. and LG. slыp, Da., Sw., Norw. slup, G. schlup; also older Du. sloepe (Kilian), LG. slupe, Da. sluppe, G. schlupe. The history of the Du. and LG. word is obscure, but it appears more probable that it is an adoption of F. chaloupe or Sp. chalupa than that it is the source of these. (F. has also sloop or sloupe from Eng. or Du.) Cf. CHALOUPE, SHALLOOP, and SHALLOP.]
1. a. A small, one-masted, fore-and-aft rigged vessel, differing from a cutter in having a jib-stay and standing bowsprit.
1629 in Foster Eng. Factories India (1909) III. 315 They keepe allways some 5 or 6 sloopes and junks trading..from porte to porte. 1677 W. HUBBARD Narrative II. 45 Some persons that belonged to a Sloop and a Shallop..were over desirous to save some of their Provision. 1719 W. WOOD Surv. Trade 285 The Trade from that Island to New Spain, is carry'd on generally by Sloops. 1775 JOHNSON West. Isl. Wks. X. 486 Sloops are loaded with the concreted ashes. 1830 MARRYAT King's Own ix, The vessels..are generally small luggers or sloops, from forty to sixty tons burthen. 1885 J. RUNCIMAN Skippers & Shellbacks 98 The little old sloops were generally family concerns.
b. A relatively small ship-of-war, carrying guns on the upper deck only. Also in full sloop-of-war.
(a) 1676 Lond. Gaz. No. 1130/4 St. Ann of Ostend, Burthen 16 Tuns,..a square stern'd open Sloop, with 2 Guns, and 20 Men. 1707 Ibid. No. 4379/3 Her Majesty's Ship Somerset, with..the Weesel Sloop, and Isabella Yacht, is sail'd for the River. 1761 Ann. Reg. 190 A short view of the whole royal navy..; 68 sloops, from 8 to 14 [guns] besides swivels. 1844 H. H. WILSON Brit. India III. 96 A flotilla of sloops and gun-brigs was attached to it. 1875 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. 2214 War-vessels of 2000 tons and upward,..carrying 12 to 22 heavy guns, are now termed sloops.
(b) 1769 FALCONER Dict. Marine (1780) Hh3, The sloops of war carry from 18 to 8 cannon. 1790 BEATSON Nav. & Mil. Mem. II. 255 A number of frigates and sloops of war. 1836 MARRYAT Midship. Easy vii, He had succeeded in obtaining his appointment to a sloop of war.
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:35 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Does anyone know the history of the term sloop for unrated vessels?
If i correctly understood the term 'sloop' for naval vessels, the first naval sloops in the 17th century were indeed sloop-rigged units under the command of the then introduced master and commanders (there are a lot of paintings showing sloop rigged naval vessels with about 16 guns). With the need for more seagoing vessels, snow, brigantine and ketch-rigs were soon introduced and because these vessels were also commanded by master and commanders, they were also classed as sloops because of the traditionell connection between the unrated ("sloop"-rigged-) vessel and the rank of Master and Commander.
Or is there no connection between the sloop-rig and the sloop-classification?
regards,
Gabriel
From: "E.J."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:28 am
Subject: RE: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg, there are sloops and there are sloops. O’Brian’s Aubrey was comparing the common use of the term sloop (a fore and aft rigged vessel) with the naval terminology, which is that a sloop is ANY vessel commanded by a Master and Commander. Two masts, three masts, one masts, if a M&C was in charge, it was considered a sloop. That’s all Aubrey was saying. Why do you think this is evidence of an inaccuracy in the O’Brian books?
EJ
From: batrinque@...
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:40 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 5:29:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, skruff@...writes:
This proves my point that O'Brien's books have been americanised to suit the market. In no way is a sloop properly a one masted vessel in the British Royal Navy !!!!
You rate your supposed knowledge of early 19th century British naval terminology too highly. As a naval vessel, the term "sloop" had nothing to do with rig, only with the rank of its commander. A vessel commanded by a commander was a sloop whether it had one, two, or three masts.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: batrinque@...
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:00 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 5:42:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, rudiram@...writes:
Or is there no connection between the sloop-rig and the sloop-classification?
Not as it was applied in the early 19th century. A naval "sloop" was a vessel commanded by a commander, regardless of rig, just as a "brig" was commanded by a lieutenant. The same vessel could be successively a brig and a sloop with no alteration in rig, the only change being the rank of its commanding officer.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Gabriel,
You are correct in that the 17th century origin of the sloop was from the single-masted (with fore-and-aft rig) small vessel. But by the end of that century the naval sloop or sloop-of-war (as opposed to the mercantile vessels) were two-masted vessels carrying a variety of rig (ketch, snow, brigantine, etc), and from about the 1750s increasing numbers of larger naval sloops were built which were ship-rigged (i.e. three-masted, with square rig on fore and main masts, and fore-and-aft rig on the mizzen masts). The term sloop was retained as these carried fewer than 20 guns and so were not powerfully-armed enough to qualify for the lowest of the Rates (Sixth Rates) which were commanded by Captains. There were by the start of the 1700s no single-masted sloops in naval use (I stress this qualification, as this appears to be where the confusion arises) and thereafter no single-masted sloops were built for the RN. Very occasionally the Lieutenant of a smaller vessel (even such as a cutter) was for particularly meritorious service 'promoted' to Master-and-Commander, although I should point out that this was not a substantive rank until 1794, in which case the vessel they commanded was redesignated a sloop if they remained that vessel's commander (more usually they were promoted into a larger vessel, an existing or newbuilt sloop), but this was a temporary 'promotion'. This was an extremely rare event.
I think - I hope - that POB was trying to capitalise on the confusion which certainly existed in the terminology when he wrote the passage that has been quoted. Certainly sloop-rigged vessels continued to exist (many of today's 'recreational' sailors continue to sail them) but they were not naval vessels after very early in the 18th century.
Regards,
Rif
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:50 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Bruce,
I think this is somewhat missing the point. Sloops could be ship-rigged (i.e. ship sloops) or brigs (i.e. brig-sloops), but were as you say commanded by a 'Master-and-Commander' (or, from 1794, just 'Commander' officially, although clearly the common usage of the older / longer term took some time to die out). The only (naval) brigs which were not sloops were the small gunbrigs introduced from 1794 onwards, which were all vessels of under 200 tons bm, and these continued to be commanded by Lieutenants. However, from about 1811 severa' of the new 'Bold' Class gunbrigs of 179.5 tons were redesignated as brig-sloops at or shortly after their completion, with their commanding officers being promoted to the rank of Commander; however, this did not last for long, and shortly after the end of the Napoleonic War the vessels reverted to gunbrigs, as and when their commanding officers were changed, with the new C.O.s now being Lieutenants again.
For the full picture on every individual vessel, may I refer you to my recent "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1793-1817" which gives the designation and rank of each of the 2,000+ vessels and their commanding officers as recorded routinely in Admiralty/Navy Board records?
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Thank you Rif,
that applies to my understanding of the origin of the term sloop. In Rob Gardiner's Line of Battle the history of the sloop and their different rigs is well explained, but somehow he avoids to point out, why the naval sloop is called sloop. He wrotes, that there is much confusion about this and even an "18th century authority" (T R Blanckley, 1732) states that "sloops were built and rigged as men's fancies lead them".
Nevertheless, the sloop-chapter in LoB is the best i have ever read about sloops.
Unfortunately, there is no book that is only sloop related. A book like "The Heavy Frigate" & "The First Frigate" from Rob Gardiner or your great "50-gun ship" concerning sloops would be fine. And because it is nearly impossible to get a copy of David Lyon's Sailing Navy List, it is very hard to find out what sloops existed and were built in the early 18th century.
regards
Gabriel
From: "Greg"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Why not have a look at "Sloops and Brigs" by James Henderson. Now why does that name sound familiar ?
Greg.
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:27 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Some discussion has taken place on the writing of a specific history of the quarter-decked ship-sloop in the RN, but nothing has yet been written.
Having covered 1793-1817 vessels in my latest book with (I hope) a degree of detail that David Lyon couldn't find room for in the 'Sailing Navy List' (and being able to build on his earlier work with a decade's further research), I'm currently putting together a "prequel" to cover the 1714 to 1792 period. This will certainly cover all the sloops and other small craft from about 1700 (less 1700-1714 losses), as well as all the larger vessels. I hope this will be of help, although it will of course take some time.
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg,
i have noticed that book. But i guess it is like Henderson's "The Frigates" and contains only narrative of sloop-actions. I am searching for (or i wish) a sloop-book with design history, ship lists, dimensions, ship plans and fittings. Just Like Rif's 50-gun ship or Gardiners frigate-books.
regards
Gabriel
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
US edition not yet available, but the UK edition (ISBN 1-86176-246-1) is distributed in the USA by MBI Publishing Company. For description, see Chatham Publishing website (but note that reference therein to "more than 1,000 vessels" should read "more than 2,000 vessels").
Rif
-----Original Message-----
From: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.c
To: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/10/05 2:52:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, tanparcau@...writes:
For the full picture on every individual vessel, may I refer you to my recent "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1793-1817" which gives the designation and rank of each of the 2,000+ vessels and their commanding officers as recorded routinely in Admiralty/Navy Board records?
Has that been published in the US yet? If not, I'll track it down by Amazon.uk.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Modestly, may I point out that my new book contains all that you specify for each 1793-1817 vessel (even as-built dimensions of each vessel, not just class design dimensions). Only a representative sample of about 50 plans are included (most specially redrawn by Norman Sales for the book), as I have a great range of 150 other illustrations selected by Rob Gardiner.
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Rif
That sounds very good & interesting news with the planned 1700-1793 period! I have noticed your book since it was annouced and it is now available in germany. Is the new book similar in the structure to your Sail and Steam Navy list?
With the books i already own, i think i have a good deal of plans, though only a few of sloops. I guess the included "50 plans" are not only sloops? ;-)
With the "redrawn plans", did you mean plans like those in the manner Peter Goodwin published in his "Nelson's Ships"?
regards
Gabriel
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:24 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Hi, Gabriel.
The book is similar in structure and style to the "Sail & Steam Navy List" with the addition of service histories (commanding officers with appointment dates, repair/refit dates and costings, main deployments, enemy warships/privateers taken, actions/battles involved in with casualties, etc).
The "50 plans" are not just the sloops, but ALL types. Drawn by Norman Swales (not Sales as I mistyped earlier) specially for the book, these are as you surmise similar to those in the Goodwin book (profiles, et, sheer plans, etc).
Rif
From: Charles
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:48 am
Subject: Sloops & Brigs
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg
To: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
"Why not have a look at "Sloops and Brigs" by James Henderson. Now why
does that name sound familiar ?
Greg."
-----
Hi;
I found _Sloops and Brigs_ and also _Frigates, Sloops, and Brigs_. What is the difference?
Chuck
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:31 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Sloops & Brigs
Dear Chuck,
Earlier in this exchange I have explained the difference between ship(-rigged) sloops and brig(-rigged) sloops; both types were of course unrated vessels, having (with a tiny handful of exceptions) fewer than 20 carriage guns. You ask what is the difference between a frigate and a sloop. Going back to basics (sorry if this is something most other group members are familiar with), frigates were rated vessels, i.e. they were classified in one of the six Rates into which principal warships were divided in the British Navy (other navies had similar but not identical systems of classification for their own warships); in this Navy between 1793 and 1817 these ships (i.e. three-masted vessels) technically carried a minimum of 28 carriage guns, and had their principal battery of guns on a single continuous deck. Just to confuse you more, this continuous deck was termed the upper deck, while the enclosed deck below, which carried no guns (or indeed no gunports) was termed the gun-deck or lower deck (in American naval terms, this was the berth deck). In day-to-day usage, the term frigate was often extended to the smaller Sixth Rates, which had between 20 and 26 guns, but technically these were not counted frigates at all and were officially referred to as 'post ships' because they were the smallest Rated vessels, i.e. the smallest vessels to which a Post Captain (i.e. an officer having the substantive rank of Captain) could be appointed to command.
When we talk of a single continuous deck armed with the ship's main battery, this does not take into account that there were partial decks above (the quarter deck at the stern, the forecastle deck forwards) which carried other guns; however, these other guns formed the ship's secondary armament; thus a typical 38-gun frigate would carry 28 guns in its main battery on the upper deck (i.e. 14 gun on each side), 8 smaller guns on its quarter deck, and 2 other secondary guns on its forecastle deck.
I hope this helps. Equally I apologise if it is too simplistic.
Regards,
Rif
.
Ниже приводится разговор на одном из форумов по поводу употребления термина "шлюп" в Royal Navy 18-го столетия.
From: "Lt. Commander Fernandez"
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:03 pm
Subject: Brig and Sloop
I was explaning, "Master and Commander" by O'Brian to a freind and ran
into a problem I hope someone can shed light on, because I haven't
found the answer.
Why is it that a Brig (a two masted vessal with square sails) is a Lt.
command and a Sloop (a single masted vessal with fore and aft sails)
is a Master and Commanders Command.
He (and I ) understand calling the Sophie a Sloop because Jack was a
M&C but wouldn't a sloop be a lighter and less heavy maned boat? And a
Brig, being square rig would be more complex then a fore and aft Sloop.
Does anyone know the answer to this or is it like O'Brian said M&C "in
the Navy we always do it like that" or it's just tradition.
From: "Greg"
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In the Royal Navy, a sloop was a Commander's command - either a 2 masted
brig-sloop or a three masted sloop (corvette). It had 16 to 26 guns although
20 guns up was usually a Captain's command. What the Americans call a
sloop - a one masted fore and aft vessel - is a cutter in the Royal Navy -
not to be confused with the large ship's boat also called a cutter.
Greg.
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:43 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg's reply is more accurate, but perhaps requires elaboration.
In the RN, a "sloop-of-war" (to give it its full designation) was any square-rigged warship below the Sixth Rate and thus mounting fewer than 20 guns (this was somewhat flexible, with a very few 20-gun vessels also being designated as sloops, although generally 20-gunships were Sixth Rates, commanded by Post Captains). In February 1817 this dividing line was raised from 20 to 24 guns, as it was at this date that carronades mounted on the upperworks (i.e. quarterdeck and forecastle) were all counted in a vessel's official gun-rating.
There was in fact no lower gun-rating; sloops could in practice have as few as ten guns (the infamous 'Cherokee' Class of brig-sloops is the chief example).
Sloops could be thus either two-masted or three-masted. The three-masted class were thus ships (you must understand that at this date the word 'ship' was a much more precise term than it has become later, and indicated ONLY a three-masted vessel, square-rigged on the fore and main masts and carrying a fore-and-aft sail on the mizzen mast) and were described as ship sloops. The two-masted classes were almost always (by 1793) brig-rigged and were thus termed brig-sloops or simply brigs (there was a subtle distinction between these latter two which I won't go into). All these were, as Greg states, commanded by Masters-and-Commanders (usually simply called Commanders, although the rank did not become a substantive one until 1794, and until that time Commanders only held that rank while appointed to command a vessel, and when moved from that post they reverted to the substantive rank of Lieutenant).
There are several exceptions to the above. The smaller brigs, below about 200 tons, were commanded by Lieutenants rather than Commanders, and the clear distinction between these commands is that the smaller class were designated as "gun-brigs". Also, there had been other earlier types of two-masted sloop, mainly carrying ketch rigs, but all or virtually all of these had gone before 1793. Two highly unique vessels (Bentham's 'Dart' and 'Arrow') received the designation "sloop" although they carried 26 or 28 guns - mainly receiving this designation because nothing else seemed to fit these very experimental vessels.
I hope this helps. Certainly you should get out of your head any idea of the word 'sloop' describing a single-masted vessel with a fore-and-aft rig; that has nothing whatsoever to do with the naval term 'sloop'.
Regards,
Rif Winfield
From: "Knut G."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:41 am
Subject: Re: Brig and Sloop - & Cutter?
Just to add a little curiosity after the preceeding comprehensive
exlanation; a quite rare case seems to be the classification of a
Cutter as "Sloop". The big cutter Alert (69 ft 4 in) was rated as
"sloop" in october 1777, "when her Commanding Officer; Lt Bazely was
promoted to the rank of Commander" (PEter Goodwin: The Naval Cutter
Alert, p. 22, footnote). If I remember correctly i read somewhere else
that her sister Rattlesnake was classified as sloop, too. Does anybody
know how many cutters were rated as sloops? Perhaps the mentioned two
were the only cases?
Best Regards
Knut
From: keacla1@...
Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
"Why is it that a Brig (a two masted vessal with square sails) is a Lt.
command and a Sloop (a single masted vessal with fore and aft sails)
is a Master and Commanders Command."
Your definition of a sloop is the most common one, but in naval
terms a sloop was a small warship of c. 12-20 guns (I don't have the
exact definition in front of me) which was usually ship-rigged, i.e.
with three square-rigged masts. Thus it was larger than a brig.
Keith
From: batrinque@...
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 2:47:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, tanparcau@... writes:
I hope this helps. Certainly you should get out of your head any idea of the word 'sloop' describing a single-masted vessel with a fore-and-aft rig; that has nothing whatsoever to do with the naval term 'sloop'.
Or, to quote Stephen Maturin (and others) from Patrick O'Brian's "Master and Commander":
'It is a false description; and a false description is anathema to the philosophic mind.'
'I am sure it is anathema to the philosophic mind,' said James Dillon. 'But the naval mind fairly revels in it, so it does. Take that word sloop, for example.'
'Yes,' said Stephen, narrowing his eyes through the haze of port and trying to remember the definitions he had heard.
'Why, now, a sloop, as you know, is properly a one-masted vessel, with a fore-and-aft rig. But in the Navy a sloop may be ship-rigged - she may have three masts.'
'Or take the Sophie,' cried the master, anxious to bring his crumb of comfort. 'She's rightly a brig, you know, Doctor, with her two masts.' He held up two fingers, in case a landman might not fully comprehend so great a number.
'But the minute Captain Aubrey sets foot in her, why, she too becomes a sloop; for a brig is a lieutenant's command.'
'Or take me,' said Jack. 'I am called captain, but really I am only a master and commander.'
'Or the place where the men sleep, just for'ard,' said the purser, pointing. 'Rightly speaking, and official, 'tis the gun-deck, though there's never a gun on it. We call it the spar-deck - though there's no spars, neither - but some say the gun-deck still, and call the right gun-deck the upper-deck. Or take this brig, which is no true brig at all, not with her square mainsail, but rather a sorts of snow, or a hermaphrodite.'
'No, no, my dear sir,' said James Dillon, 'never let a mere word grieve your heart. We have nominal captain's servants who are, in fact, midshipmen; we have nominal able seamen on our books who are scarcely breeched - they are a thousand miles away and still at school; we swear we have not shifted any backstays, when we shift them continually; and we take many other oaths that nobody believes - no, no, you may call yourself what you please, so long as you do your duty. The Navy speaks in symbols, and you may suit what meaning you choose to the words.'
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "E.J."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:49 am
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg, with all due respect, the Oxford English Dictionary defines a sloop as a fore-and-aft rigged vessel, according to the first definition, which dates as early as 1629 (Def 1a). You can’t tell me that they “Americanized” the OED…
Could it be that the situational use of the term sloop employed by the Royal Navy and described in Patrick O’Brien’s book has confused you? A later definition describes a sloop of war, but does not specify the rigging.
EJ
Here’s the definition:
[ad. Du. sloep, = Fris. and LG. slыp, Da., Sw., Norw. slup, G. schlup; also older Du. sloepe (Kilian), LG. slupe, Da. sluppe, G. schlupe. The history of the Du. and LG. word is obscure, but it appears more probable that it is an adoption of F. chaloupe or Sp. chalupa than that it is the source of these. (F. has also sloop or sloupe from Eng. or Du.) Cf. CHALOUPE, SHALLOOP, and SHALLOP.]
1. a. A small, one-masted, fore-and-aft rigged vessel, differing from a cutter in having a jib-stay and standing bowsprit.
1629 in Foster Eng. Factories India (1909) III. 315 They keepe allways some 5 or 6 sloopes and junks trading..from porte to porte. 1677 W. HUBBARD Narrative II. 45 Some persons that belonged to a Sloop and a Shallop..were over desirous to save some of their Provision. 1719 W. WOOD Surv. Trade 285 The Trade from that Island to New Spain, is carry'd on generally by Sloops. 1775 JOHNSON West. Isl. Wks. X. 486 Sloops are loaded with the concreted ashes. 1830 MARRYAT King's Own ix, The vessels..are generally small luggers or sloops, from forty to sixty tons burthen. 1885 J. RUNCIMAN Skippers & Shellbacks 98 The little old sloops were generally family concerns.
b. A relatively small ship-of-war, carrying guns on the upper deck only. Also in full sloop-of-war.
(a) 1676 Lond. Gaz. No. 1130/4 St. Ann of Ostend, Burthen 16 Tuns,..a square stern'd open Sloop, with 2 Guns, and 20 Men. 1707 Ibid. No. 4379/3 Her Majesty's Ship Somerset, with..the Weesel Sloop, and Isabella Yacht, is sail'd for the River. 1761 Ann. Reg. 190 A short view of the whole royal navy..; 68 sloops, from 8 to 14 [guns] besides swivels. 1844 H. H. WILSON Brit. India III. 96 A flotilla of sloops and gun-brigs was attached to it. 1875 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. 2214 War-vessels of 2000 tons and upward,..carrying 12 to 22 heavy guns, are now termed sloops.
(b) 1769 FALCONER Dict. Marine (1780) Hh3, The sloops of war carry from 18 to 8 cannon. 1790 BEATSON Nav. & Mil. Mem. II. 255 A number of frigates and sloops of war. 1836 MARRYAT Midship. Easy vii, He had succeeded in obtaining his appointment to a sloop of war.
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:35 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Does anyone know the history of the term sloop for unrated vessels?
If i correctly understood the term 'sloop' for naval vessels, the first naval sloops in the 17th century were indeed sloop-rigged units under the command of the then introduced master and commanders (there are a lot of paintings showing sloop rigged naval vessels with about 16 guns). With the need for more seagoing vessels, snow, brigantine and ketch-rigs were soon introduced and because these vessels were also commanded by master and commanders, they were also classed as sloops because of the traditionell connection between the unrated ("sloop"-rigged-) vessel and the rank of Master and Commander.
Or is there no connection between the sloop-rig and the sloop-classification?
regards,
Gabriel
From: "E.J."
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:28 am
Subject: RE: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg, there are sloops and there are sloops. O’Brian’s Aubrey was comparing the common use of the term sloop (a fore and aft rigged vessel) with the naval terminology, which is that a sloop is ANY vessel commanded by a Master and Commander. Two masts, three masts, one masts, if a M&C was in charge, it was considered a sloop. That’s all Aubrey was saying. Why do you think this is evidence of an inaccuracy in the O’Brian books?
EJ
From: batrinque@...
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:40 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 5:29:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, skruff@...writes:
This proves my point that O'Brien's books have been americanised to suit the market. In no way is a sloop properly a one masted vessel in the British Royal Navy !!!!
You rate your supposed knowledge of early 19th century British naval terminology too highly. As a naval vessel, the term "sloop" had nothing to do with rig, only with the rank of its commander. A vessel commanded by a commander was a sloop whether it had one, two, or three masts.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: batrinque@...
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:00 am
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/9/05 5:42:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, rudiram@...writes:
Or is there no connection between the sloop-rig and the sloop-classification?
Not as it was applied in the early 19th century. A naval "sloop" was a vessel commanded by a commander, regardless of rig, just as a "brig" was commanded by a lieutenant. The same vessel could be successively a brig and a sloop with no alteration in rig, the only change being the rank of its commanding officer.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Gabriel,
You are correct in that the 17th century origin of the sloop was from the single-masted (with fore-and-aft rig) small vessel. But by the end of that century the naval sloop or sloop-of-war (as opposed to the mercantile vessels) were two-masted vessels carrying a variety of rig (ketch, snow, brigantine, etc), and from about the 1750s increasing numbers of larger naval sloops were built which were ship-rigged (i.e. three-masted, with square rig on fore and main masts, and fore-and-aft rig on the mizzen masts). The term sloop was retained as these carried fewer than 20 guns and so were not powerfully-armed enough to qualify for the lowest of the Rates (Sixth Rates) which were commanded by Captains. There were by the start of the 1700s no single-masted sloops in naval use (I stress this qualification, as this appears to be where the confusion arises) and thereafter no single-masted sloops were built for the RN. Very occasionally the Lieutenant of a smaller vessel (even such as a cutter) was for particularly meritorious service 'promoted' to Master-and-Commander, although I should point out that this was not a substantive rank until 1794, in which case the vessel they commanded was redesignated a sloop if they remained that vessel's commander (more usually they were promoted into a larger vessel, an existing or newbuilt sloop), but this was a temporary 'promotion'. This was an extremely rare event.
I think - I hope - that POB was trying to capitalise on the confusion which certainly existed in the terminology when he wrote the passage that has been quoted. Certainly sloop-rigged vessels continued to exist (many of today's 'recreational' sailors continue to sail them) but they were not naval vessels after very early in the 18th century.
Regards,
Rif
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:50 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Bruce,
I think this is somewhat missing the point. Sloops could be ship-rigged (i.e. ship sloops) or brigs (i.e. brig-sloops), but were as you say commanded by a 'Master-and-Commander' (or, from 1794, just 'Commander' officially, although clearly the common usage of the older / longer term took some time to die out). The only (naval) brigs which were not sloops were the small gunbrigs introduced from 1794 onwards, which were all vessels of under 200 tons bm, and these continued to be commanded by Lieutenants. However, from about 1811 severa' of the new 'Bold' Class gunbrigs of 179.5 tons were redesignated as brig-sloops at or shortly after their completion, with their commanding officers being promoted to the rank of Commander; however, this did not last for long, and shortly after the end of the Napoleonic War the vessels reverted to gunbrigs, as and when their commanding officers were changed, with the new C.O.s now being Lieutenants again.
For the full picture on every individual vessel, may I refer you to my recent "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1793-1817" which gives the designation and rank of each of the 2,000+ vessels and their commanding officers as recorded routinely in Admiralty/Navy Board records?
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Thank you Rif,
that applies to my understanding of the origin of the term sloop. In Rob Gardiner's Line of Battle the history of the sloop and their different rigs is well explained, but somehow he avoids to point out, why the naval sloop is called sloop. He wrotes, that there is much confusion about this and even an "18th century authority" (T R Blanckley, 1732) states that "sloops were built and rigged as men's fancies lead them".
Nevertheless, the sloop-chapter in LoB is the best i have ever read about sloops.
Unfortunately, there is no book that is only sloop related. A book like "The Heavy Frigate" & "The First Frigate" from Rob Gardiner or your great "50-gun ship" concerning sloops would be fine. And because it is nearly impossible to get a copy of David Lyon's Sailing Navy List, it is very hard to find out what sloops existed and were built in the early 18th century.
regards
Gabriel
From: "Greg"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Why not have a look at "Sloops and Brigs" by James Henderson. Now why does that name sound familiar ?
Greg.
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:27 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Some discussion has taken place on the writing of a specific history of the quarter-decked ship-sloop in the RN, but nothing has yet been written.
Having covered 1793-1817 vessels in my latest book with (I hope) a degree of detail that David Lyon couldn't find room for in the 'Sailing Navy List' (and being able to build on his earlier work with a decade's further research), I'm currently putting together a "prequel" to cover the 1714 to 1792 period. This will certainly cover all the sloops and other small craft from about 1700 (less 1700-1714 losses), as well as all the larger vessels. I hope this will be of help, although it will of course take some time.
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Greg,
i have noticed that book. But i guess it is like Henderson's "The Frigates" and contains only narrative of sloop-actions. I am searching for (or i wish) a sloop-book with design history, ship lists, dimensions, ship plans and fittings. Just Like Rif's 50-gun ship or Gardiners frigate-books.
regards
Gabriel
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
US edition not yet available, but the UK edition (ISBN 1-86176-246-1) is distributed in the USA by MBI Publishing Company. For description, see Chatham Publishing website (but note that reference therein to "more than 1,000 vessels" should read "more than 2,000 vessels").
Rif
-----Original Message-----
From: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.c
To: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
In a message dated 12/10/05 2:52:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, tanparcau@...writes:
For the full picture on every individual vessel, may I refer you to my recent "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1793-1817" which gives the designation and rank of each of the 2,000+ vessels and their commanding officers as recorded routinely in Admiralty/Navy Board records?
Has that been published in the US yet? If not, I'll track it down by Amazon.uk.
Bruce
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Modestly, may I point out that my new book contains all that you specify for each 1793-1817 vessel (even as-built dimensions of each vessel, not just class design dimensions). Only a representative sample of about 50 plans are included (most specially redrawn by Norman Sales for the book), as I have a great range of 150 other illustrations selected by Rob Gardiner.
Rif
From: "galab"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Rif
That sounds very good & interesting news with the planned 1700-1793 period! I have noticed your book since it was annouced and it is now available in germany. Is the new book similar in the structure to your Sail and Steam Navy list?
With the books i already own, i think i have a good deal of plans, though only a few of sloops. I guess the included "50 plans" are not only sloops? ;-)
With the "redrawn plans", did you mean plans like those in the manner Peter Goodwin published in his "Nelson's Ships"?
regards
Gabriel
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:24 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
Hi, Gabriel.
The book is similar in structure and style to the "Sail & Steam Navy List" with the addition of service histories (commanding officers with appointment dates, repair/refit dates and costings, main deployments, enemy warships/privateers taken, actions/battles involved in with casualties, etc).
The "50 plans" are not just the sloops, but ALL types. Drawn by Norman Swales (not Sales as I mistyped earlier) specially for the book, these are as you surmise similar to those in the Goodwin book (profiles, et, sheer plans, etc).
Rif
From: Charles
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:48 am
Subject: Sloops & Brigs
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg
To: RoyalNavy_from_1789@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Brig and Sloop
"Why not have a look at "Sloops and Brigs" by James Henderson. Now why
does that name sound familiar ?
Greg."
-----
Hi;
I found _Sloops and Brigs_ and also _Frigates, Sloops, and Brigs_. What is the difference?
Chuck
From: "RIF & ANN WINFIELD"
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:31 pm
Subject: RE: [RoyalNavy_from_1789] Sloops & Brigs
Dear Chuck,
Earlier in this exchange I have explained the difference between ship(-rigged) sloops and brig(-rigged) sloops; both types were of course unrated vessels, having (with a tiny handful of exceptions) fewer than 20 carriage guns. You ask what is the difference between a frigate and a sloop. Going back to basics (sorry if this is something most other group members are familiar with), frigates were rated vessels, i.e. they were classified in one of the six Rates into which principal warships were divided in the British Navy (other navies had similar but not identical systems of classification for their own warships); in this Navy between 1793 and 1817 these ships (i.e. three-masted vessels) technically carried a minimum of 28 carriage guns, and had their principal battery of guns on a single continuous deck. Just to confuse you more, this continuous deck was termed the upper deck, while the enclosed deck below, which carried no guns (or indeed no gunports) was termed the gun-deck or lower deck (in American naval terms, this was the berth deck). In day-to-day usage, the term frigate was often extended to the smaller Sixth Rates, which had between 20 and 26 guns, but technically these were not counted frigates at all and were officially referred to as 'post ships' because they were the smallest Rated vessels, i.e. the smallest vessels to which a Post Captain (i.e. an officer having the substantive rank of Captain) could be appointed to command.
When we talk of a single continuous deck armed with the ship's main battery, this does not take into account that there were partial decks above (the quarter deck at the stern, the forecastle deck forwards) which carried other guns; however, these other guns formed the ship's secondary armament; thus a typical 38-gun frigate would carry 28 guns in its main battery on the upper deck (i.e. 14 gun on each side), 8 smaller guns on its quarter deck, and 2 other secondary guns on its forecastle deck.
I hope this helps. Equally I apologise if it is too simplistic.
Regards,
Rif
