especially misleading without the first "I" in your post title :-)

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wonder where it went.

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You are not using vi by any chance?
Then recompile the program you are currently working on - it might not like an extra I in a random place :-)

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o, not vi. Emacs sometimes, but not now.

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vi uses "i" for insert mode and "a" for append, command-line cvs is set up to use vi by default, so cvs comments are often missing the first "i" or "a".

As for the article, it is correct to describe the aftermath of their experience as "trauma", although it is, obviously, misleading. It also bugs me that there is an implicit assumption that women are more affected than men - it's traumatic no matter who happens to do or witness cruelty.

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I know vi/vim and I do not like to use it and I do not use it.

I like emacs.

Cruelty is only part of it. It is crime. Witnessing it and not reporting may be crime too.

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Yes, I like emacs, too. As I said, vi is the default for cvs, and even though I reset it for myself multiple times, it still shows up every once in a while on a new machine or after an OS upgrade.

A crime. Well, on one hand it's good that someone still calls black "black" and not a "darker shade of white". On the other hand, when a government takes its 18 y.o., gives them weapons, and puts them in an environment where a crime is a daily fixture, something you do between breakfast and lunch, I would have a hard time referring to these young people as criminals. Even older people may obey orders or follow common practices blindly, even though under other circumstances they would understand that they are committing a crime. We have people between 18 and - what? - 22? 24? Of course, some of them buy into this ideology completely, or just get hooked on a power game, and we have a next generation of military officers. How convenient!

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It's not like crime is committed on a schedule. The situation on the territories is morally difficult for anyone who has to serve there (and anyone who has to live there). It takes toll.

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I didn't mean that it happens on a schedule, only that it happens routinely and is a natural consequence of the common attitude. I am not familiar with the situation on the territories, but I read quite a bit about Iraq and crimes committed there. There are, I am sure, differences, but I don't believe the two situations are fundamentally different. In Iraq there is a attitude among american soldiers towards the native population that basically says "they are all enemies, backward people, and liars". These are almost literally quotes from soldiers who were witnesses at various US court hearings. This attitude is a policy of the army and naturally causes torture, cruelty, and other crimes.

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I think there are differences, not sure how important they are. Mostly it is that the crimes in Iraq are not much different from what is routinely going on in American prisons, therefore it is a fact of human nature more likely than a fact of military life. In Israel, it seems to be different. Indeed, I recall people who have been exposed to IDF and border police saying that the police is noticeably more brutal, often on the border with and above what is acceptable.

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I am sure there are differences. Some of the crimes in Iraq that I was referring to were rape and murder - not something that is routinely done in American prisons - well, I hope... The torture seems to be more cruel in Iraq as well.

The main difference, to me, is that in Israel it's much closer to home. You can't really escape the coexistence with "enemies", even if it's not right on your street. You know that in all likelihood your children will go through the same army experience as you did. In Iraq it's much more remote, you come back home, and those other people don't exist any more. It's much easier to do horrible things in this setup and reconcile them with being a "good kid" and going to church every Sunday when you get home.

I am not sure if the difference is fundamental, though, as the general sense of what people in the army have to go through is very similar.

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Murder is not routine. Rape is rumored to be routine, but I have doubts.

A bit of torture at war may be healthy. Depends on what we call torture.

Yes, Israel is fighting an existential fight, which does not really excuse excesses, only explains them. I do not want to wait until the US and the rest of the modern world ("the West") is forced to fight an existential fight too. But it all can and should be done properly. If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too.

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Crime is routine, certain extreme instances of it are an exception. If our standard allows torture and blowing up houses without a proper check of who is inside then it is natural to expect that on the extreme end we get murder and rape.

As for "If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too" - well, I don't know what to say. I am supposed to be an idealist, not you :-) There are many things that "shouldn't" happen, but happen in practice, are encouraged by the system, and are intertwined with the system so tightly that you can't really separate them. Every time you have a war like this (Iraq, Kosovo, Israel, Chechnya), same thing happens - torture and crimes. I don't know how to prevent this - vote for a government that's less likely to start a stupid war to begin with? Even that is often not an option, for a variety of reasons.

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And yet rape by IDF is practically unknown. Why is that?

I used words like "needs" and "should". :-)

What makes a particular war stupid or not? Opinions differ. I hesitate to raise the case of Chamberlain and Churchill again, but my understanding is the position of Chamberlain was popular, whereas Churchill was practically alone among top British politicians who would condemn the pact. Often what makes a war popular is a victory, and not the rational reasoning about taking arms.

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And yet rape by IDF is practically unknown. Why is that? - possibly because it's too close to home? Soldiers rape when they are occupants on lands that they are not going to see again. A soldier rapes a woman in his own country, then his potential child will be living in the same country, too - this possibility makes people very uncomfortable.

Often what makes a war popular is a victory - then a stupid war is one that has very little chance of victory - mmm, Iraq, maybe?

It's an interesting topic, but I would rather not go there. If we both agree that some wars are more stupid than others then we are on the same page (yes, it's a large page).

I should go and rake leaves in my yard before it starts snowing again (it did this morning). Hope the use of the word "should" here doesn't make me an idealist, but even if it does, I don't care. Talk to you later...

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But rape by Arabs was not unheard of in the wars before Israel was established. Must be some other explanation.

Iraq has a very large chance of victory. But let's move back a little. France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought?

We are on the same page, but one of us is reading it backwards! :-)

Just do not step on the rakes and everything will be fine!

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Arabs consider rape to be shame to the victim. The victim is supposed to be killed by her relatives. There is no expectation that she will have a baby. Maybe that's the reason that rape is perceived differently in Arab world?

France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought? - waaait a second, France was attacked! In this case even a small chance is a good chance.

I didn't step on the rake and even managed not to get frozen - that was much more challenging!

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Материалы по теме - такой справедливый арабский "мир" (язык не поворачивается написать последнее слово без кавычек), как
CNN сообщает.

Внимание, вопрос!
После прочтения подумайте и угадайте какой мир палестинцы в состоянии предложить Израилю?..

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Если Вы где-то у меня нашли что-то о справедливости, то Вы ошиблись. Разговор шел исключительно о том, что в каком мире принято и почему.

Историю эту я читала. Подтверждает она именно то, что я сказала - что жертва изнасилования подвергается наказанию (поскольку женщина в данной ситуации замужняя, убить ее при желании должен муж, поэтому прочие родственники не вмешиваются). Обсуждать этическую сторону дела я сейчас не буду, поскольку и раньше не ее обсуждала.

А какое отношение к дискуссии имеет мир в Израиле, я вообще не понимаю.

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1) Слово "справедливость" относилось не к Вам, а к законам принятым в Арабском ... хм-м-м "мире".
2) Я с Вами не спорила.
3) Ну что ж, очень жалко.

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May I suggest mud fight?

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Well... I don't see anyone fighting, though...

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Nu!

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Наверное, можно было сказать: "А вот не подерётесь!.."
А я бы ответила: "А как ты догадался?..."

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Ладно, к следующему Thanksgiving'у надо будет придумать какой-нибудь mud pit.

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Писать жж-каменты изнутри vi, это радикально.

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щё бы!

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Where is that film to be downloaded?

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I do not know. The link has expired.

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