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	? ??? ?????????... koukhto@lj 2001-08-21 01:08 (ссылка)
	??? ????? "????????": ???????? ??????? ??? ??????????? (Ответить) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	Re: ? ??? ?????????... ex_ycuken@lj 2001-08-21 01:37 (ссылка)
	?????? ????? ??????????. ? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??????, ?? ????????? ????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	??? ?????????? ??? ??????... koukhto@lj 2001-08-21 01:51 (ссылка)
	...????? ??????????????. ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????????? ?????? ??? ??????? :) (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	????? dm_lihachev@lj 2001-08-21 01:21 (ссылка)
	? ??? ????? ?????????????? ???-??? ??? ????? ??????? - ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???????? ?????? ? ??? ????? ????. ? ?????? - ? ?????? ? ??? ? ???? ????? ?????? - ? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???????????, ?????????????\????????? - ?? ??? ? ??? ?????-?? ????? ???????? (Ответить) (Ветвь дискуссии)

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	????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? (Анонимно) 2001-08-21 02:28 (ссылка)
	?? ???, ?????, ? ??? ???????. ? ???? ??? ?? ????????. ???? ???????? ?????? ????????? - ????????????. ??? ???? ??? ?????????. ? ?? ?????? ? ???????, ????? ?? ???????????. ? ??? ? "?????????" ???????? (?????????????? ???????, ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?????????????? ? ??????? ??????). http://nationalism.org/wb/board/1141.shtml ??????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	?? ???, ???? ? ??? ??????? ?????? -- dm_lihachev@lj 2001-08-21 07:42 (ссылка)
	?? ? ??????????????? :(( ???????, ?? ???????? - ?? ?????????, ????????? ???????? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? - ??????????, ??????, ??? ??????, ????? ?? ?? ?????????????? ?????? ??? ???? - ????? ???????? ?????, ??? ???? ????????, ? ????? ?? ???????? ???... ??????-??? -- ???-?? ????? (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

??? ? ??????? werych@lj 2001-08-21 23:10 (ссылка)

?????????? ?????? ??????? ??????-?? ??????? ???? - ???-?? ??????? (??????? ??? ???) ????????. ? ???-?? - ?????????. ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ????, ??? ??????, ? ???? ???? ??????????????. ? ???? ????? ?????????????, ??? ??????????????? ??????? ???????? ????. ??? ???? ???, ????????, ????????? ?? ???????, ?? ? ?? ?? ???????, ????? ? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????. ???? ? ????????, ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? - ???, ??? ?????, ???? ? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???????, ? ????????? ? ?? (??????, ??????, ?????? ? ?????) - ????? ?? ?????? ????... ????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	Re: ????? olala@lj 2001-08-21 23:18 (ссылка)
	????? ??? ??? ??????????? ????????? ??????, ??? ?????????? ??????? ???????????? ?? ??????? ????????? ???-?? ?????, ??????? ????????? ????????????????? ???????, ? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? ?????? (?? ????? ????????? ? ?.?.). ???????, ???: "...?????? ?????, ???? ?????? ????????". ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	?? ?? ???? ????! dm_lihachev@lj 2001-08-22 00:29 (ссылка)
	?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? - ??? ???????????? ????? ???? ????, ? ????? ???? ??????? ? ???????????? ??????? ? .. ?? ????? ??? ??? - ???? *????????* ? ? ??????? ? ??????? ???.????. ???? - ?????? ?? ???, ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ? ??? ????? (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	Re: ?? ?? ???? ????! olala@lj 2001-08-22 01:25 (ссылка)
	??? ?????? ?????? ??????????/?????? ??????) (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	??? ??????..... dm_lihachev@lj 2001-08-22 01:30 (ссылка)
	??? ???? ???? 18?? ??? ???? ???????????? ??????????? ???? ???????? ? ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?/??? ??????? --- ??? ??, ???????? :) (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	Re: ?? ?? ???? ????! olala@lj 2001-08-22 01:39 (ссылка)
	[??? ?????????? ?????? - error, ?????? ????????????] "?? ?? ???? ????" ???????? ??? ??????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	vyastik@lj 2001-08-21 01:59 (ссылка)
	?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????????? (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1813/index.html), ????, ????????, ??? ?????? -- ? ??????????? (?????????? ?????) oboguev@lj ?????? ??, ??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ? ?????? ? ???????????? ????????. (Ответить) (Ветвь дискуссии)

oboguev@lj 2001-08-21 07:58 (ссылка)

> ???????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ? ?????? ? ???????????? ???????? ???, ? ?????, ??? ? ????. ??. ??????? ?? ???????????, ?? ?????? ???????. ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????: Based on a great deal of evidence, I argue that Judaism developed a conscious program of eugenics to improve scholarly ability (but not only scholarly ability), with the result that Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is at least one standard deviation above the white mean. This was not the only trait that was selected for. Jewish eugenics was conscious in the sense that they believed that people should be very careful about the characteristics of one's mate because they would affect one's children. They were especially keen on the importance of marrying men who were scholars. The following is from the Talmud: ?a man should sell all he possesses in order to marry the daughter of a scholar, or marry his daughter to a scholar or other man of character, because he may then rest assured that his children will be scholars; but marriage to an ignoramus will result in ignorant children? (b. Pesachim, 49a). This is a paragraph from ?A People That Shall Dwell Alone?: Judaism as a group strategy: the authors of the Talmud, like the other ancients, believed that heredity made an important contribution to individual differences in a wide variety of traits, including physical traits (e.g., height), personality (but not moral character), and, as indicated by the above quotations from the Talmud, scholarly ability. ?Every care was taken to prevent the birth of undesirables by a process of selective mating? (p. 32). Individuals contemplating marriage are enjoined to attend to the family history of the future spouse: ?a girl with a good pedigree, even if she be poor and an orphan, is worthy to become wife of a king? (Midrash num. R.i, 5). A prospective wife should be scrutinized for the presence in her family of diseases believed to be inherited (e.g., epilepsy), and also the character of her brothers should be examined, suggesting an awareness of the importance of sex-linked factors.Physical appearance was not to be a critical resource for a woman: ?for ?false is grace and beauty is vain.? Pay regard to good breeding, for the object of marriage is to have children? (Taanith 26b and 31a). There is every evidence that in fact the Jews followed these rules quite closely, particularly the practice of wealthy men finding scholars as husbands for their daughters. http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/SLATE_SHULEVITZ.htm (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

belochka@lj 2001-08-21 12:10 (ссылка)

Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to write in English because I'm too tired to hunt out the Russian letters on my keyboard. I really don't know as much about the religion as I should, but I think that one factor that's related to the "evolutionary success" is the perception of the "destination" of life. There is a strong culture of living for the sake of the children, owing to them the best one can provide, rather than trying to achieve (this goes for the inherited culture in the-age-of-many-atheists) a heaven based on personal goodness. The present has to be justified by the future, rather than the future being justified by the past. Let me try that, in different words, and, while I'm at it, in Russian: ??? ??????? ??? ??????, "????????" _???_ ???????????," ? ?? "???????????" _??-??_ "????????." Does that make any sense at all? ???? ????????????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????????? -- ???? ?????? ??? ??????????????? ? ??????????????? ??????? ????? "goes hand in hand" ? ???????? ?????? ????????? ? ????????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

oboguev@lj 2001-08-22 01:03 (ссылка)

> Does that make any sense at all? ??????????, ?? ?????. ?? ??????????? ??????? ? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ???????? ?????????? ? ?? ?? ????????, ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ???????????? ????????????? ??????, ?????????? ?????????? ??????? :-) ??????, ????????, ??? ? ????? ????????? (? ????? ?? ??????) ????????? ? ????????? ?????????, ??? ????????????????? ??????????? ????????? ? ??????????? * * * ???? ????????, ???????, ??????. ????? ?? ?????????? ????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ? ????????? ??????????????? ?? ????? ????? ?????, ?? ????????? ????????????, ??? ???? ????????? ?????????? ???? ?????????? ????????????? ? ????? ? ?????????? ?????. ? ??????????? ????????, ??? ???? ??????? ? ???????????? ???? ?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????, ?????? ??????? (?????? ????? ?? ????? ????????? ????????) ?????? ? ??????????? ??????? ???? ????????? ??????, ??? ????????, ? ? ??????????? ??????? ???? ????????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????????????????? ? ??????????????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ????? ?? ??????????? ????????. ?.?. ?????????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ? ?????????? ??????????. ?Because the European-derived groups are less organized and less cohesive than Jews and because a therapeutic state has been erected to counter expressions of European-American ethnocentrism, it raises the distinct possibility that in the long run European Americans will be fragmented, politically powerless, and without an effective group identity at all. The conflict of interest between Jews and gentiles in the construction of culture goes well beyond advocacy of the multicultural ideal. Because they are much more genetically inclined to a high-investment reproductive strategy than are gentiles, Jews are able to maintain their high-investment reproductive strategy even in the absence of traditional Western cultural supports for high-investment parenting (Ch. 4). Compared to gentiles, Jews are therefore much better able to expand their economic and cultural success without these traditional Western cultural supports. As Higham (1984, 173) notes, the cultural idealization of an essentially Jewish personal ethic of hedonism, anxiety, and intellectuality came at the expense of the older rural ethic of asceticism and sexual restraint. Moreover, traditional Western supports for high-investment parenting were embedded in religious ideology and, I suppose, are difficult to achieve in a postreligious environment. Nevertheless, as Podhoretz (1995, 30) notes, it is in fact the case that Jewish intellectuals, Jewish organizations like the AJCongress, and Jewish-dominated organizations such as the ACLU have ridiculed Christian religious beliefs, attempted to undermine the public strength of Christianity, or have led the fight for lifting restrictions on pornography. Further, we have seen that psychoanalysis as a Jewish-dominated intellectual movement has been a central component of this war on gentile cultural supports for high-investment parenting. Whereas Jews, because of their powerful genetically influenced propensities for intelligence and high-investment parenting, have been able to thrive within this cultural milieu, other sectors of the society have not; the result has been a widening gulf between the cultural success of Jews and gentiles and a disaster for society as a whole.? etc. http://home.att.net/~dysgenics/whither.htm (Ответить) (Уровень выше) (Ветвь дискуссии)

belochka@lj 2001-08-22 06:04 (ссылка)

I?m going to take the off-chance that I didn?t express myself clearly enough, and try to elaborate on what I meant. At the very least, it will solidify my own perception of this (? ? ?? ????????? ?? ???-???? ?????? ??? "perception"). Let me preface this by saying that the evening before I saw your post, I was just having a related discussion with myself after having drank too much, and having ranted to/at my roommate who made the mistake of making some comment about Russia that I considered a personal insult. The ranting wasn?t so much my being mad at her, as it was my feeling frustrated with the conflicting feelings I have for Russia and America. Guilt, nostalgia, love, fear, ??????, ??????... I think it's pointless for me to try to explain it -- it's a pretty obvious, banal-in-its-ubiquitousness, feeling that others have described before (and better than) me. How does one justify having better opportunities? Does one need to? I needed to. I felt that I was spoiled by "the good life." When I was done ranting and raving I went outside, smoked a cigarette, and tried to justify, if not explain, that which I felt guilty about. In quiet times, my subconscious mind (and, what I might have felt to be god, if I believed) will soothe me, sometimes. How does one justify having better opportunities? (not even going into the question of whether happiness has anything to do with "opportunities") There is luck. There are natural (though not always predictable) consequences. I think that there is something in the Jewish culture that has a bigger focus on the consequences for the children, than on consequences on life today, or life in the "otherworld." <<<??????, ????????, ??? ? ????? ????????? (? ????? ?? ??????) ????????? ? ????????? ?????????, ??? ????????????????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???????????>>> A number of my Jewish(-American) friends believe in a higher power, without believing in life after death. I know no such Christian. Do you think that?s significant? Actually, do you think it?s even true? I?m trying to tap back into the sense/essence of the thoughts/feelings I had Monday night (probably unlikely without some alcohol to return me to that state) but it?s very slippery. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	(Анонимно) 2001-08-21 03:20 (ссылка)
	???? ??? ??? ??????: ?????, ????????? ???????????? ?????? ???, ???? ??????? ? ????? ???????? (Ответить) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	???? ??????? ? ????? ??????? pycckuu_gyx@lj 2001-08-21 19:26 (ссылка)
	...? ??? ?????? ?????? ? ????????? ??????????... (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	(Анонимно) 2001-08-23 12:50 (ссылка)
	? ???????, ?? ?????? - ???? ????-???? ???????? ??????? - ?? ?????? ?????! ???? ?????? ???????????? ?????. ??? ?????????????? - ??? ??????. ?? ?????! (Ответить) (Ветвь дискуссии)

	(Анонимно) 2001-08-24 13:17 (ссылка)
	????? ????????? ????????????. ?????. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

	?????? ????? ???????? (Анонимно) 2001-09-15 09:59 (ссылка)
	???????, ?????? ????????, ??? ??? ???????? ?????? ???????? ?? ??????? ????????? ????????, ??????? ??????????. ????????-??, ??? ???, ?? ????????? ??????? ???????? ?????... rms1 (Ответить)