alexakarpov: пошловато выражусь, но

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good, let's reason about it

alexakarpov
2014-11-13 00:18 (ссылка)

1) my labor does no belong to my employer - my labor belongs to me

2) I am selling my labor to my employer, for a price that we both freely agreed on, and which has a certain market value

3) If I were a slave, then there would be no free contract between me and my employer. He would force me, threatening with pain and bodily harm, to do his will. If there were more slaves, he would even resort to killing me, to keep other slaves fearful and compliant.

this is for your point (1)

As for point (2), don't switch the subject. We are not talking about slaves who are incapable of doing anything, or who are in vegetative state. But, if they have "choices" which are limited to trivial inconsequential matter (do I pee in a sitting position, or in a standing one?), they cannot be called free. They cannot choose their own path in life, it's quite simple.

Relationship of humans with Gods is very much different. Saying "but then humans are not free, because they cannot fly, or fart fire from their asses, and are in danger of eternal damnation", are bogus. These things are consequences of their own choices. The most disgusting switch, "подмена понятий", used by the leftist scum, is just that - the claim they are not free, because the have to face the consequences of their own shitty behavior. For them, "free" is when other pay for their expenses. "Free healthcare", "free education", "free contraception", "free internet".

Do you not see how dangerous a path you're walking there, friend?

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Re: good, let's reason about it

silly_sad
2014-11-13 00:49 (ссылка)

1) my labor does no belong to my employer - my labor belongs to me
+
2) I am selling my labor to my employer
=
your labour belongs to the BUYER --
once you have sold it it is no longer yours.

still you are not a slave!

because:
2.5) for a price that we both freely agreed on

which is not the case with a god.

on the contrary:

3) If I were a slave, then there would be no free contract between me and my employer.

which IS THE CASE OF A GOD!
god signed no contract with you, your god simply CLAIMED YOU his property.

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Re: good, let's reason about it

alexakarpov
2014-11-13 04:47 (ссылка)

no, my labor belongs to ME
I _sell_ it the buyer of MY choosing, for the price that I AGREE to receive for it

of course I am not a slave.

on the contrary:

3) If I were a slave, then there would be no free contract between me and my employer.

==================================
which IS THE CASE OF A GOD!
god signed no contract with you, your god simply CLAIMED YOU his property
==================================

no, you're misrepresenting our beliefs. I will repeat you our beliefs, the way we know them.

God CREATED us. Obviously, He did it without our prior consent, because before we were created, there were no 'us' to give that consent.

And, equally obviously, it is a logical contradiction, to create the uncreated. God is uncreated - humans are created.
Thus, being created, we have constraints around us. We can't... I don't know. We can't fly. We can't fart fire. We can't see future. We can't create things out of nothingness. Simply speaking, our nature was created with limited powers.

How in the world does this mean 'God owns you' ? Can you elaborate? He owns the world, because He created it; and He owns LIFE ITSELF. because He created it. And He owns all the living things, because He created them irrational and dumb. But He doesn't own us, because He created us in His image and likeness - which is to say, He created us, unique among all things, _free_ and _sovereign_.

Don't answer until you understand what I've just said. And when you answer, please try to demonstrate logic, and not just irrational emotional rejection. Thanks.

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Re: good, let's reason about it

silly_sad
2014-11-13 05:17 (ссылка)

> no, my labor belongs to ME

BEFORE you sell it

> I _sell_ it the buyer of MY choosing, for the price that I AGREE to receive for it

seems a fair deal -- nothing remotely like all this god's stuff

3) If I were a slave, then there would be no free contract between me and my employer.

i clearly observe the absence of any contract between you and any god.

==============

> God CREATED us. Obviously, He did it without our prior consent

yes. and that's exactly the problem.
why on earth you should be responsible for god's actions?

he voluntarily created you, and he made you OBLIGATED to live the life which is by definition plainly unsolicited.

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Re: good, let's reason about it

alexakarpov
2014-11-13 09:12 (ссылка)

I sell it AFTER I execute it. I sell the PRODUCTS of my labor, for payment. What use do I have for the code I write? None whatsoever. But my company has use for it, so I write it, and sell it.

What in the world are you talking about? Do you like think you've presented an argument? Because you didn't.

yes. and that's exactly the problem.

no it isn't. There's no violence, no forcing. Before humans were created, there were no humans, to serve as a "subject" for violence or coercion. It was an act of a Creator, to make them. What's the problem with that?

And how are we 'responsible for God's actions' ? We are responsible for our own actions only. Ever. As for God's actions - we exist. It's not a responsibility. It's existence. We exist, because He willed it.

he voluntarily created you, and he made you OBLIGATED to live the life which is by definition plainly unsolicited.

a fairly obvious logical fallacy. Before he created me, there was no 'I' to which the term 'unsolicited' could have been applied. There was no 'me'. There was no subject to any of those things - coercion, violence, force. None.

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	Re: good, let's reason about it silly_sad 2014-11-13 20:23 (ссылка)
	> It was an act of a Creator, to make them. What's the problem with that? that you are forced to take full responsibility for the result of the action committed by the 3rd party. (Ответить) (Уровень выше)

Re: good, let's reason about it

silly_sad
2014-11-13 20:34 (ссылка)

>> he voluntarily created you, and he made you OBLIGATED to live the life which is
>> by definition plainly unsolicited.

> a fairly obvious logical fallacy. Before he created me, there was no 'I'

thefreedictionary.com/unsolicited

"Not looked for or requested; unsought: an unsolicited manuscript; unsolicited opinions."

Tell me, did you requested your existence (when it was no "You") ?

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