МЕЛКО ДРОБЛЕНОЕ НЕБЫТИЕ
(слоями)
Англосаксы как нация 
17-Feb-2009 16:41

У англосаксов King этимологически близок kin, что есть родня. Поэтому и подвластные воспринимались как единый род. Отсюда неразличение родов, не народ, а Nation, что этимологически тоже подразумевает единый корень происхождения. Под властью Короля, значит, автоматом единая нация. С другой стороны, и на Nation переносилось значение единства подвластности. Здесь, в самом языке,  генезис Nation как Nation-State, а не в "Общественном договоре".  Что поделать, дикари. Если бы у нас был не Царь, а какой-нибудь Отцерод, в России тоже была бы давно нация, а не народ.

Не настаиваю. Но такое именно у меня впечатление сложилось по результатам поверхностного беглого поиска. Однако ничего не нашел о нациях крупных собственников и вольных средневековых ландскнехтов.

English Etymology Dictionary

nation 13c., from O.Fr. nacion, from L. nationem (nom. natio) "nation, stock, race," also "that which has been born," from nasci "be born." Political sense has gradually taken over from meaning "common ancestry." Nationalism is first attested 1836 as "the doctrine of divine election of nations;" 1844 in meaning "devotion to one's nation;" earliest in an Irish context.

Websters 1828 Dictionary:    
Nation NATION, n. [to be born]
    1. A body of people inhabiting the same country, or united under the same sovereign or government; as the English nation; the French nation. It often happens that many nations are subject to one government; in which case, the word nation usually denotes a body of people speaking the same language, or a body that has formerly been under a distinct government, but has been conquered, or incorporated with a larger nation. Thus the empire of Russia comprehends many nations, as did formerly the Roman and Persian empires. Nation, as its etymology imports, originally denoted a family or race of men descended from a common progenitor, like tribe, but by emigration, conquest and intermixture of men of different families, this distinction is in most countries lost.
    2. A great number, by way of emphasis.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):
Nation \Na"tion\, n. [F. nation, L. natio nation, race, orig., a being born, fr. natus, p. p. of nasci, to be born, for gnatus, gnasci, from the same root as E. kin. [root]44. See Kin kindred, and cf. Cognate, Natal, Native.] 1. (Ethnol.) A part, or division, of the people of the earth, distinguished from the rest by common descent, language, or institutions; a race; a stock. All nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. --Rev. vii. 9. 2. The body of inhabitants of a country, united under an independent government of their own. A nation is the unity of a people. --Coleridge. Praise the power that hath made and preserved us a nation. --F. S. Key. 3. Family; lineage. [Obs.] --Chaucer. 4. (a) One of the divisions of university students in a classification according to nativity, formerly common in Europe. (b) (Scotch Universities) One of the four divisions (named from the parts of Scotland) in which students were classified according to their nativity. 5. A great number; a great deal; -- by way of emphasis; as, a nation of herbs. --Sterne. Five nations. See under Five. Law of nations. See International law, under International, and Law. Syn: people; race. See People.

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition (2003):
nation noun Etymology: Middle English nacioun, from Anglo-French naciun, from Latin nation-, natio birth, race, nation, from nasci to be born; akin to Latin gignere to beget — more at kin Date: 14th century 1. a. (1) nationality 5a (2) a politically organized nationality (3) a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b. a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c. a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status 2. archaic group, aggregation 3. a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)

Websters 1828 Dictionary:
King KING, n.
1. The chief or sovereign of a nation; a man invested with supreme authority over a nation, tribe or country; a monarch. Kings are absolute monarchs, when they possess the powers of government without control, or the entire sovereignty over a nation; they are limited monarchs, when their power is restrained by fixed laws; and they are absolute, when they possess the whole legislative, judicial, and executive power, or when the legislative or judicial powers, or both, are vested in other bodies of men. Kings are hereditary sovereigns, when they hold the powers of government by right of birth or inheritance, and elective, when raised to the throne by choice. Kings will be tyrants from policy, when subjects are rebels from principle.

English Etymology Dictionary: 
king O.E. cyning, from P.Gmc. *kuninggaz (cf. Du. koning, O.H.G. kuning, O.N. konungr, Dan. konge, Ger. k?nig). Possibly related to O.E. cynn "family, race" (see kin), making a king originally a "leader of the people;" or from a related root suggesting "noble birth," making a king originally "one who descended from noble birth." The sociological and ideological implications make this a topic of much debate. Finnish kuningas "king," O.C.S. kunegu "prince" (Rus. knyaz, Boh. knez), Lith. kunigas "clergyman" are loans from Gmc. In O.E., used for names of chiefs of Anglian and Saxon tribes or clans, then of the states they founded. Also extended to British and Danish chiefs they fought. The chess piece so called from 1411; the playing card from 1563; use in checkers/draughts first recorded 1820. Applied in nature to species deemed remarkably big or dominant (e.g. king crab, 1698), "As leon is the king of bestes." [John Gower, "Confessio Amantis," 1390] Kingfisher (1440) was originally king's fisher, for obscure reasons. Kingdom-come "the next world" (1785) is from the Lord's Prayer. The film "King Kong" was released 1933.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):
Kin \Kin\, n. [OE. kin, cun, AS. cynn kin, kind, race, people; akin to cennan to beget, D. kunne sex, OS. & OHG. kunni kin, race, Icel. kyn, Goth. kuni, G. & D. kind a child, L. genus kind, race, L. gignere to beget, Gr. ? to be born, Skr. jan to beget. ?. Cf. Kind, King, Gender kind, Nation.] 1. Relationship, consanguinity, or affinity; connection by birth or marriage; kindred; near connection or alliance, as of those having common descent. 2. Relatives; persons of the same family or race. The father, mother, and the kinbeside. --Dryden. You are of kin, and so a friend to their persons. --Bacon.


Comments 
17-Feb-2009 16:24
Англия как nation-state - пример крайне сомнительный. Она вообще скорее всего ей не является. С учетом особенно всей этнической, территориальной и властной чехады, из которой состоит ее история.
17-Feb-2009 16:33
ну да. с нашей точки зрения именно так. и была б одна Англия, проблем бы не было. но англосаксонская культура заполнила мир. смотрят то люди на Штаты. оттуда все.
17-Feb-2009 16:37
Да нет - я не про Штаты - Англия - это собственно Англия, Шотландия, Уэльс и Ирландия (с некоторых пор четвертушка). Хорошее национальное государство с ярко выраженным сепаратизмом и автономистскими движениями и несколькими языками.
17-Feb-2009 17:06
для американов именно Nation State

http://mr_sedivy.tripod.com/england.html
Rise of Nation State England

строго говоря, United Kingdom. но дискуссии шумят.
17-Feb-2009 17:20
Есть и другие мнения: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_State#The_United_Kingdom

Что до "соединного королевства" - формально UK - личная уния, хотя и сильно довольно интегрированная.
17-Feb-2009 17:49
А Википедия не американский ресурс :)

ну, там вообще все очень интересно развивается сейчас, особенно в Шотландии. Кстати, шотландцы в полном смысле слова (английского) это нация, имевшая своего Короля.

а вот любопытное про собственно Англию. прям как у нас, воображаемая нация :)

Imagined Nation: England after Britain
http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/books/archive/imagined_nation.html
Mark Perryman (ed)

Imagined Nation: England after BritainThe break-up of Britain has begun but, unlike the rest of its constituent parts, England remains an imagined nation. Scotland has a Parliament, and Wales and Northern Ireland have Assemblies. What does England have as a nation state - apart from a team to cheer and a flag to wave?

Imagined Nation explores the possibilities for England after Britain - as a multicultural nation, capable of addressing the legacies of history, yet confident enough to construct an inclusive future.

The contributors to this book put forward a variety of ideas in an effort to begin to create a new imaginary for an old country. Rejecting racialised ideas of Englishness, they outline the prospects for a hybrid nation, and offer a vision of a green and pleasant land as an alternative national future
17-Feb-2009 19:09
Я на самом деле смысла большого в этих дефинициях не вижу - nation-state, как я его понимаю, подразумевает довольно высокую степень гомогенности. У UK она заметно ниже "образцово-показательной" - значит не вполне NS.

А все эти политические спекуляции - "вы нация и мы нация" imho вообще в отрыве от конкретных интересов в конкретном случае - глупость. Я вот не понимаю, на хрена "русское национальное государство" - скорее есть раздражение - опять фигню какую устроят, да еще прикапываться будут - "ты по крови/культуре русский - давай крестись строй нацию". Да в гробу я эту русскую нацию видал - она не булькает :)
17-Feb-2009 17:22
Мдауж, этимология интересная. Если ей верить, "нация", "генетика" и "женщина" - родственные слова от одного индоевроепйского корня g'en- обозначавшего продолжение рода (жениться). В германских языках произошёл характерный для германских и тохарских языков фонетический сдвиг с оглушением первой звонкой смычной согласной, отсюда kin- (kin, kinder). В романских - полная нейтрализация мягкого g' в g, отсюда genus - род, genetics, а также после утере первого согласного: gnatus - natus (рожденный) и neo-natus - новорожденный. В славянских и индоиранских палатизация g' в "ж": жена, санскрит jan-. Как-то так, если вкратце...
17-Feb-2009 17:58
ну да. в языке если не все, то половина "отгадок" по крайней мере. кстати, и половина философических "непоняток", если не больше, для русских тоже языком обусловлена. поэтому лучше думать на своем...
17-Feb-2009 18:07
как мило:

“We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to state whether he recognises that England is a nation”.

Readers will doubtless have their own ideas concerning the value and purpose of such petitions, especially as those demanding impossible concessions (such as immediate independence for England) abound! However, this one is meant to strike at the real heart of the issue: before we can even address the question of whether England can or should have its own parliament or even independence, we need to establish what, and indeed whether, England actually is.

The background to this petition is the conclusion I’ve come to – which is shared by many – that England presently has no official or constitutional status as a nation whatsoever: effectively, England does not exist in any meaningful legal, political or constitutional sense. So, for instance, when people complain – as I frequently do – that Gordon Brown, Westminster politicians in general and the national media refer to England as the UK / Britain, and to English matters as British matters (and that they never say England when they mean England), this ‘correctly’ reflects the legal position: there is no such thing as England other than as the name for a territory; only the UK / Britain and UK / British governance exist. Further contextual background to my thinking on this can be found >here and here.

In my view, it’s time the government were forced to come clean on this issue and state, one way or another, whether it views England as a nation or not (as I think is the case).
If, however, the answer to the petition is ‘yes, England is a nation’, this would enable the case for popular English sovereignty (the basis on which we in England might actually be consulted about our constitutional future, as well as the basis for any future English parliament) to be pressed much more powerfully: ‘as England is a nation’, we could say, ‘it is the sovereign right of her people, under human-rights legislation to which the UK government has signed up, to demand to be able to govern themselves in the manner of their own choosing’.

If, however, the answer is ‘no, England is not a nation’, then this could become a significant focus for popular protest. Again, an official statement; but this time an explicit government acknowledgement that England is no more as a nation – as opposed to the term ‘country’, preferred by the government, which carries no political or constitutional weight and is just a territorial jurisdiction.

The further details given for the petition tie in acknowledgement of England’s nation status to that of Scotland and Wales; i.e. if England is a nation, then Scotland and Wales are to be recognised as nations, too; but if England is not a nation, neither should Scotland nor Wales be accepted as such. This means that any rejection of the petition effectively also denies nationhood to Scotland and Wales; hence, the protests against it could be greatly magnified – media in those countries could be alerted. However, if the response to the petition provides any latitude to the present impression that Scotland and Wales are being allowed to reaffirm their nationhood (through devolved government etc.) while England is merely (what is left of) Britain, that, too, could help to amplify the protests in England.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/blog/ourkingdom-theme/david-aka-britology-watch/2008/09/16/england-nation-or-not
17-Feb-2009 18:54
Напомнило призывы Распутина вывести РСФСР из СССР.
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